Sorry, but I've been ridiculously busy lately and only now had a chance to give a good look at the recently posted study. It does not prove what the poster claims it proves. I don't care what you militant meat-eaters eat, but the crap being spewed in that thread is dangerous and WRONG. If there is such an annoyance with the existence of vegans and vegetarians, go start your own Atheist meat-eating group, get together to eat steak and get constipated, but please do not spread misinformation.

lol

We have so little understanding of human genetics that it'd be difficult to know how either foods truly effect each and every individual. Case studies are generally nothing more then impersonal ratios anyways since human testing is generally considered unethical.

I see the issue as a personal one though because as an individual consumer I don't force my choices on anyone but myself. Now if anyone decided to make the argument that my individual purchasing power supports certain interests then they fail to accept that it's damn near impossible to know where the money will go after it's left your hands. Nor do I have all that much control as an individual against massive farm subsidies. I personally feel that it's natural for humans to eat animal flesh, but that we consume it in quantities that are unnatural. And that our desire for it has led to unsafe business practices in the food industry. Though I gotta say that the unsafe business practices aren't limited to just the meat industry. The farming industry's actions are leading to soil degradation and dead zones in the ocean after all. But that isn't limited to just food either so it's all rather moot I guess.

Speaking of which do any of you guys know of a farmer's market in San Antonio? I'd like to support local farmers, but I've yet to see anything of the sort other then the occasional farmer coming up from the Valley to sell various fruits. I'm looking for more of a year round thing. Plus it'd be much easier to find out what their farming practices are if you can talk to them in person. Such things as what fertilizers they use (and how much of it), pesticides, whether they give the land time to regenerate its organic resources, etc.

I'm scared.

But seriously. I didn't read the thread all that thoroughly but I didn't see anything that said "meat good, veggies bad, EVERYBODY EAT MEAT." It looked like the poster was just trying to share a study that refuted the lipid hypothesis. The same hypothesis that brought us deadly trans fats, and overly-processed foods that people think are healthy because they have a "low fat" label slapped on the cardboard box. Often times, you're better off getting the foods with higher fat content if it means less processing and added sugars.

Comparative studies involving the Western diet over, uh, basically any other diet, shows that there isn't one particular aspect of the Western diet that makes us obese, diabetic and rampant with heart disease. African cultures that eat a predominantly meat-based diet are healthier than us. Indigenous Japanese folks who eat nothing but plants are healthier than us. That said, studies like this indicate that it's not so much one specific food that deserves the blame for our poor health, it's our general lifestyle. For a really long time a lot of blame has been put on saturated fats. I think, at least, that this shows the problem is much deeper than that.

Everyone knows that vegetarians and vegans are, as a whole, healthier than the general population. Anyone who even hints that vegetarianism/veganism is bad is an idiot. The proof is in the pudding, and that in itself gives no one a reason to condemn those food choices. But I don't really think anyone was, this time.

But seriously. I didn't read the thread all that thoroughly but I didn't see anything that said "meat good, veggies bad, EVERYBODY EAT MEAT." It looked like the poster was just trying to share a study that refuted the lipid hypothesis. The same hypothesis that brought us deadly trans fats, and overly-processed foods that people think are healthy because they have a "low fat" label slapped on the cardboard box. Often times, you're better off getting the foods with higher fat content if it means less processing and added sugars.

Comparative studies involving the Western diet over, uh, basically any other diet, shows that there isn't one particular aspect of the Western diet that makes us obese, diabetic and rampant with heart disease. African cultures that eat a predominantly meat-based diet are healthier than us. Indigenous Japanese folks who eat nothing but plants are healthier than us. That said, studies like this indicate that it's not so much one specific food that deserves the blame for our poor health, it's our general lifestyle. For a really long time a lot of blame has been put on saturated fats. I think, at least, that this shows the problem is much deeper than that.

Everyone knows that vegetarians and vegans are, as a whole, healthier than the general population. Anyone who even hints that vegetarianism/veganism is bad is an idiot. The proof is in the pudding, and that in itself gives no one a reason to condemn those food choices. But I don't really think anyone was, this time.

What African cultures are these that eat predominately meat, and are you referring to fish or red meat? Cause for the most part there wasn't a society that truly eat predominately meat till industrial farming. That or they had a very small population in comparison to those who ate more of a grain/maze based diet.

Roz, I normally wouldn't mind such a thread, but understand that this isn't just about this one thread. This is on top of having to hear the same person make passive-aggressive remarks at every single event I see him at and basically talking about meat every chance he can get-- but never to me, just always making sure that he is right next to me. Imagine if I were to make "all meat-eaters are nazis" remarks over and over and over again. Would I or would I not be more annoying than a fanatical christian?

If I posted one of the many many MANY studies proving how healthy a vegan diet is, certain people would have a cow-- not even just a cow, but an entire friggin' farm. THAT is the double standard I'm talking about.

I'm an incredibly nice person and I can put up with a lot. But a line is going to be drawn somewhere, starting now.

Just to make some clarification on this, Roz, in point of fact, the title of Carlos's (just in case nobody knew who I was talking about ) post is:

"Saturated Fats Good for Heart and Vessels: Butter, Eggs and Meat Provide Healthy Fat"

The study does not say that. What the study says is there is no direct link between saturated fat and heart disease. The title of the post is factually inaccurate, and therefore, misleading.

Lawlz, trust me, I'm not defending Carlos. I don't know what kind of anti-veggie stuff he's said near or around you. If I have, I've probably been drunk and immediately not cared/forgot. If he's ever said anything of that sort, I'd probably tell him to do some more reading (but in a meaner, drunker manner, i.e. "you're an asshat").

Like I said, anyone who knows anything about nutrition can admit that in America the vegetarian/vegan diet yields a healthier population. The proof is in you, hot Avery, and lots of others. I just don't think anyone in that thread was saying that vegetarians/vegans are necessarily unhealthy by not eating animal fats. The debate is whether consumption of those fats is the determining factor of on an overall healthier diet (which vegetarians and vegans generally have due to their overall awareness of food and food processing, versus those who eat tons of saturated fats, like myself). I still think that no matter how many "low fat" Oreos you eat, you're still doing more harm than good because it isn't the type of fat that makes the difference, it's the fact that you're eating fucking oreos.

And, just for the record, saturated fats aren't limited to animal fats. Do some reading on coconut and palm oils, saturated fats that have similarly been condemned due to the lipid hypothesis. Like it or not saturated fats are used by your body, and if you don't consume them they're synthesized for your brain and shit.

But what am I talking about? I'm drunk and ranting on meetup.com. Basically, I'd be a vegetarian if I had the willpower/sobriety. I generally only eat pastured/grass fed or organic meat because I've convinced myself that I can taste the hormones and antibiotics in conventional meat, which is way gross. At the same time, I look at my sharp fang teeth and think that they want meat. Whatever, I forgot what I was talking about. I still don't think anything in that thread was anti-vegetarian/vegan. I do think that by saying "it's the vegetable fats that are killing us!" is equally stupid as ignoring American eating habits as a whole.

What African cultures are these that eat predominately meat, and are you referring to fish or red meat? Cause for the most part there wasn't a society that truly eat predominately meat till industrial farming. That or they had a very small population in comparison to those who ate more of a grain/maze based diet.

Uhh, I read about that in a book I just put down. The author listed sources. I'll get back to you when/if I remember. ;)

Was I in a mood last night or WHAT? Hahahaha. OK, I don't know why I'm laughing. I actually don't care anymore, but one comment too many had pushed me to my limits this weekend.

I apologize if I offended anyone.

But ahh, I opened this can of worms. I'll go with it. The big picture. Yes, but then let's focus on the big picture rather than post what could be classified as an ad for McDonald's. The thing is, the study posted had absolutely nothing to do with the title of the thread. If he was going to use that title, he needed to clarify that such saturated fats are healthy in their natural form. But he didn't. Therefore, I stand by my comment that he was spreading misinformation-- misinformation that is dangerous and wrong.

But he does seem to have this obsession lately, and yes, I do think that thread was posted for my benefit. I might not think that if he wasn't going around preaching his carnivorous diet like (how it was so perfectly put in another thread) some new religion. This doesn't mean that I think the discussion that followed was posted for my benefit or that I expected it to occur to anyone that this was going on to the 112 time I had to hear about it from the same damn person.

Regardless. Um... well, that's all.