Seriously you can't throw a stone without hitting an athiest there.

My employer has a similar policy. We're not allowed to stone people unless they're atheists.

I was hoping someone would run with that one.

awesome :)

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no one can tell someone else that they should sacrifice something of their personal life for the sake of the cause. i'm a completely open atheist and love talking to folks about it. but i know full well there's no way i can say what's right for someone else. in fact, if i had the type of job that could be effected by my atheism i would def be discreet. no one lives in anyone else's shoes. yes, i understand the catch-22 of how we're discriminated against and can't change that unless we expose ourselves to more discrimination. i can appreciate that. i love irony, i do. but its absolutist and just plain wrong to presume that the only way we'd be more accepted is if 100% were out. really? i think we can make great progress w/ those of us that are comfortable w/ activism being active, and those of us who aren't, remaining discreet. that may be too hippie-drum-circle for some folks but you just can't tell another person how to live. after all, that's what they do.

To those who have concerns about "coming out" . . .

. . . you (and your children, if you have them) could very well be persecuted. You may be discriminated against. You may become alienated from those who "loved" you.

Worst of all, you very well could break the heart of people who really do love you. Yes, if someone sincerely loves you--and if they sincerely believe in hell--your self-indulgent revelation of apostasy could consign them to a living hell. A *real* living hell.

I don't mean to diminish the discrimination that other disenfranchised people have overcome, but the matter of religion/salvation is the ULTIMATE smack-down. Ethnicity . . . gender . . . homosexuality . . . in the eyes of the true believer, all these are small potatoes compared to salvation.

Think long and hard before you hoist the atheist flag. For some, it's not that big of a deal, not really. But for others? It could be a matter of (eternal) life and death. At least in the eyes of people that matter in their lives.

Before you drop the bombshell, remember that maybe it's not "all about you".

Sometimes, the consequences of coming out can be predictable . . .

For many years one of my biggest fears was that my parents would find out I'm an atheist. In this case, the opposite of ignorance would have been the opposite of bliss.

Sometimes being open about being an atheist can bushwhack you . . .

I was at my daughter's soccer practice, in a conversation two of the other dads were having about faith-healing. Both of the other dads had grown up in Iran--muslims who had converted to christianity. One of them had just been "healed" by a faith-healer who had apparently did the old pretend-to-pull-a-chicken-giblet-out-of-the-tummy trick. Since I had clammed up when the topic was broached, it wasn't long until they turned to me and one of them asked "do you believe in God, Richard?"

The question came from the father of my daughter's best friend since kindergarten.

There wasn't anything to be gained by telling them the truth. Yet, I've never had a good enough memory to be a talented liar. Besides, what harm would there be in letting them know? I had known the guy for years. Surely our friendship could survive the truth if it were delivered gently.

Unfortunately, I didn't prevaricate. My answer as meek and humble of an answer I could muster, but it wasn't what he wanted to hear. My non-confrontational "no" cost my daughter her best friend during her vulnerable middle-school years.

Mind you, I didn't argue. I didn't act smug or superior. I just gave the softest possible "no, I don't" reply and then deflected the following volley of incredulous questions with a Gumpian shrug.

Wasn't worth it. No sir.

Now that I'm all wound up, there's one more point I think that should be raised in this forum: we all need to be responsible with the trust our closeted comrades place in us.

Suffer me one more cautionary tale . . .

Before MeetUp made its appearance I did attend a meeting of another atheist group, and left my e-mail address on their attendance log. Yep--the next thing you know one of the members had included me in a publicly-exposed cc: list as she was sending out one of those preaching-to-the-choir "friendly spam" messages. (My e-mail address contained my first and last name.)

At the time that happend, that reckless act could have caused a fair amount of damage to me, professionally. And yes, I suppose it's possible it could have gotten back to my parents, too.

Regardless how you feel about being in the closet, no one has the right to destroy someone else's privacy. This is never justified. Unless someone tells you they have gone public with their atheism, then exercise caution. You may be out of danger, but others may not be so lucky. Keep your big damn mouth shut if you happen to bump into someone that knows someone you met through an atheist meetup. Keep your big damn mouth shut if you happen to meet someone who makes the news but you know through atheist channels. That big damn mouth could do a lot of damage.

I mean this in the nicest possible way. :-)

That said, my circumstances have changed; I am (now) open about my atheism. Being "out" really is as liberating as I had long hoped it would be. To the closeted I hope you can join us "outs" as soon as you possibly can--the water's fine!

But remember that no one has the right to throw someone else into the deep end. No one has the right to out someone else who entrusts them with their personal beliefs. It is NEVER justified. It could be tantamount to character assassination. The consequences are exactly the same. Maybe worse.

There is a code, amigos. Know it. Honor it.

I can agree with a lot of what you've said, Richard. But the suggestion to consider the beliefs of others before declaring your own is dangerous, in my opinion. It is, in effect, rewarding the most ignorant and closed-minded among us. It is treating their beliefs as the standard to which others should judge their right to be open. The effects on the ones you love should be considered before denouncing anything; however, the non-believer should also know that the "living hell" that may be created for a religious fanatic is of the believer's making, not the non-believer's.

. . . the suggestion to consider the beliefs of others before declaring your own is dangerous, in my opinion . . .

It seems we're in complete accord, Nathan--I just failed to make my point with enough clarity. I agree that everyone can and should out *themselves* if that's what honks their horn. I just don't think anyone has the right to out someone else without their explicit permission to do so.

In that case, we are indeed in agreement.

I have been thinking a lot about the whole issue of whether, what, and when to tell people for a while. I suppose that was one of the reasons I joined the group. I suppose that in college this was really such a non-issue that I hadn't thought about it for years. But at my current place of employment it comes up all of the time.

I belive that people shold make up their own minds about what they belive and should be free to do so. However I do not think that anyone has the right to force their beliefs on others. The people who rn the firm I work at however think that not only should everyone have the same beliefs as them, but that it is perfectly acceptable to create a working environment in which people are completely afraid to appear to not conform because of the impact this will have on your career. For a long time I didn't let things bother me, but after dealing with it for so long I got really fed up with it.

The final thing that set me off was an incident with another coworker. On that particualr day, I was already having a lousy day so I just wanted to quietly eat my lunch outside. The coworker came up and just starting preaching to me about how I "needed to be saved" and that I "was going to hell" because I was just "too stupid to accept Jesus and be saved". Sometimes I really do think that they can smell out "heathens". The thing that really made me angry was that I knew that if I complained abou this, it was likely that I would be the one that would be penalized and he would likely be rewarded.

We have a meeting of all of the staff every Monday morning and they always close it with a prayer. After they prayed for George Bush (not because he needed help, but because he was such model to be emulated), I stoppped going. I was of course called in and basically told that I either had to start acting like a model employee again or I could leave. Though at the time I wanted to leave, with the crrent job market I couldn't. So I had to make a lot of comprimises and I do feel like I sold-out.

That situation is a text-book call for way over the top religionism. Just be even MORE insane about Jesus than they are, and your problems may not vanish right away, but they will morph into NEW and FUN problems!

Try quoting scripture.... not just some scripture, but like... 12 pages at a time. If you're interrupted, act annoyed and look at the sky with a "Who is this guy?" look on your face.

Get really excited about Jesus. I mean... REALLY excited. Like... excuse me, I have to go to the bathroom because I love Jesus so much right now excited.

If they suspect you're mocking them, try crying. Get Jesus cufflinks and carve cheetos into his likeness, then show them to every single person 3 times per day. Tape them to your cubicle wall and pray at them when you have time.

Anyway... that's what I would do. Let me know if you have any other problems. I'm here to help.

I'm a very public atheist, but the risk associated with that is not as high as many individuals in the work place who are employed by conservative Christians. I do realize certain job opportunites will not be allotted to me later in life; for instance, I probably couldn't run for public office (although it wasn't never really a plan anyway).
I have dealt with social ostracism , because without social ostracism religion wouldn't be as prominent as it is, but not everyone is in a position to come out as an atheist. I mean hell, I'm a student, I can't get fired for coming out about it, so I'm in no position to judge someone for not financially martyring themselves for atheism.

wanted to chime in and put in my two cents on the topic. everyone's situation is different so the more ideas the better in my opinion.

I've been comfortable in my atheism for a few years now. like a lot of people here i grew up in a semi religious (Lutheran) household. when i was a kid i started to disagree with the church but kept it to myself. for 15-20 years I've beaten a path from agnostic to atheist knowing deep down there was no god i still felt ashamed because of what was embedded in my head as a child. now that I'm out i feel so much relief its ridiculous. I'm so much more comfortable even when I'm with believers who know I'm atheist. this is all while coping with social anxiety which my coming out has helped with ironically.

if I'm out and i run into another atheist who isn't then id like to think that they can see it as motivation to do the same because I'm doing just fine. and believers get to see that atheist are good people.

I'm a self employed photographer so my job doesn't exactly require any religious affiliation so i never run into problems. but i should note that i never talk about religious beliefs with clients or networking associates. it could lead to me loosing a job.

I'm also from a family who isn't all that close so coming out want a big deal and wouldn't really change much. obviously I'm in a much better place than some people when it comes to being out about my beliefs. it was still hard though so i sympathize with anyone who goes for it. its on par with coming out of the gay closet which i witnessed my best friend go through. i say if you can without having detrimental effects on your life then go for it otherwise maybe staying in the closet around certain people is a good idea.

Every time an atheist makes his beliefs known, there are a few more people who can say "one of my best friends is black... I mean an atheist".

When those little cultural whirlpools form in workplaces, containing nothing but Christians and silent atheists/agnostics... bad things happen. We are the brakes.

We have a responsibility to be known. I try to manage my circumstances in a manner that allows me to be open with my beliefs. I may have to sit in a cube all day, but I'll be damned if I have to be dishonest about my beliefs in order to keep myself in the cube.

I'm trying to get out of debt now (car and house) so that I don't actually need a job. I'll hunt armadillo for food if I have to. To hell with mindshackles.